Let us have our first "testimonial", eh?
Bring it on 11:32!
And here it is:
you have heard of going postal ... ... now we are going Nuke You Leer!
Doc -
This is just going to turn into a pity-party. It is time you and all the other bloggers woke up and smelled the coffee.
There is nothing here to talk about. I might as well be reading peta.org and moveon.org drivel as your conspiracy stuff here.
Hey, that's my line. :-)
You are wasting your breath. All folks seem to want to do on these blogs is whine and protest things they have precisely zero control over. I can't wait for the hunger strike or DOE sit in to get organized.
The problem is there are so few facts posted on the blogs and lots of conjecture put forward as fact. Part of that is due to not getting the facts from the laboratory, but part of it also stems from the simple truth that most folks here don't want actual information that contradict their personal views. So what are you going to do? I guess just read the blogs for some detached light amusement...
11:30 -
Someone has offered to provide their own personal experience with a CI polygraph. We cannot easily verify the accuracy or legitimacy of this post If/When it is made, but it (and subsequent ones) might very well be real and legitimate.
We don't know if you think that is useful in any way, but we do.
You sound like "Good Lord/BTW" as Darko has dubbed you(?) ... and we have to agree with him(her?) that it is not clear what your play is here. What are you offering us? Are you merely "chiding" most of us for being agitated by the circumstances or do you have something more to offer?
If you think the things being discussed on these blogs are things we have "zero control over", it would seem that what we discuss here *YOU* have zero control over. Not precisely zero unless the blog runners start excising your comments, but close to it.
What "facts" do you expect us to get from the laboratory? Posting or linking the actual memos and policies seems pretty factual. A lot of the "facts" are hidden from us. Direct quotes from laboratory management is offered here but until push comes to shove, we know from elaborate experience that the word of much of the management is worth little.
They will do as they feel they need/want to pursuing goals and agendas which we (nor likely the citizenry that funds the laboratory) do not share.
You say "most folks here don't want actual information that contradict their personal views". Actually some of us do want "actual information". We would like to have some of the hard data. The "actual facts" we get out of the laboratory tend to be ambiguous and sometimes contradictory.
Brad "slam dunked" Nanos' outrageous claims about our safety and security statistics with the very "actual facts" the laboratory publishes. Surely you don't like Brad's "personal views" and maybe find his very competent analysis of the "actual facts" inconvenient to your personal views.
And as has been asked elsewhere, are you talking about PETA or POGO?
- Doc
Good Lord!
Here you go again... if you didn't seem so earnest, I'd have dismissed you completely.
One more time. Do you have something productive to offer here?
What about this testimony, Al Zelicoff's elaborate documentation, the SNL report, the National Academy of Sciences report do you not accept as fact?
What is it you think we are ignoring that doesn't support our "personal views" on this topic? Is there some evidence we don't know about (besides DOE's insistence on using Polygraphs as if they work!) that we don't know about?
Tell us.
The only thing I will grant you is that we in fact, have (nearly) zero control... at least as individuals, but maybe we have a little more control if we communicate and share experiences, knowledge, ideas.
Do you have anything to offer us on this topic?
- Darko
Doc,
I will add my experience to the list of CI polygraphs. I took mine about 18 months ago. Same place as the first poster. Identical experience up until I got called to go on over to the polygraph suites. I got this examiner, (his mentality I guess was that of a used car salesman, just by the way he talked and acted) I asked him his name, he said it didn't matter for me to know it. That set me up on the defensive right there. I had researched the polygraph online and through my local library. I literally read everything I could get my hands on. The polygrapher line for line did exactly what most of my reseach said he would do. The pretest was exactly as described. It was at this point I realized that I was dealing with a neanderthal, who couldn't think beyond the scripted process he was employing. So we went through the questions, and he hooked me up. As we were going through the questions, he yelled a couple of times, he said I was breathing too shallow, and accused me of trying to manipulate the test. I just continued breathing at my normal rate. I was more relaxed than I thought I would be. And I think he didn't much like that. We went through the questions 3 times. He stopped the questioning a couple of times, because he said I was having a reaction to the foreign national contacts question. I wasn't, I knew that this was a ploy and an area of concern for everyone I talked too, other folks said the same after their polys. I said nothing was bothering me. We completed the testing and he left to examine and score the charts, at least that is what I assumed he was going to do. I had no worries as I 100% told the truth. But it was interesting to note that the knowlege of the polygraph procedure and the format used was predictable. The upfront study on the polygraph was a great comfort. Mr Neanderthal came back in and had me go sit in the waiting area. Within a 1/2 hour I was told I could go home. I never heard anymore about it. Total time was about 3.5 hours. After that experiece, I now more than ever know and believe that the polygraph is a complete waste of time. The key thing is not to be intimidated and also not allow the brainwashing routines (pretest and examiner bluster) and the little numbers test, (they use it supposedly to calibrate the machine), swing you into believing that it really does work. Its nothing more than a mind game. Anyone with game theory experience will see it for what it is.
I've had 3 or 4 CI polygraphs over the years and the best advice I ever received was from a DOE Security Mgr who said "All I know is never admit to anything... they'll take the slightest indiscretion and turn it into a major security breech".
His point was that DOE was looking for "examples" to justify the success of the CI polygraph Program.
Doc said: "You sound like "Good Lord/BTW" as Darko has dubbed you(?) ... and we have to agree with him(her?) that it is not clear what your play is here. What are you offering us? Are you merely "chiding" most of us for being agitated by the circumstances or do you have something more to offer?"
Gee, I did not know offering anything substantive was a pre-requisite for posting comments on the blog. My bad. I'll go back and look for all the helpful insights Darko has posted as an example to guide me in the future. I must have missed them.
The CI information from folks that have gone through it is indeed interesting and useful. The laboratory has had 2 meetings behind the fence on this topic with the workforce, and I think a third is planned this week. Is the information presented there consistent with what folks are reporting in the CI thread? It seems to me that is is. Given that, and given the limited scope of the poly, how do folks feel about it in general now? Are you getting the right information about it and do you feel you have response options?
America's Two Gadgets is a paper about deterrence published recently in Isis, a Univ of Chicago publication. The author, Ken Alder, also wrote The Lie Detectors, a history of the American polygraph. The article is several months old and doesn't reference the current DOE polygraph policy, but it doesn't really have to. We're just repeating history. The comparison between the bomb and the polygraph is interesting.
Two Gadgets -
Thanks for the link to the articles. We will consider this for promotion to a top-post.
Our own first reading on this was ambiguous.
1) Yes, there is a similarity.
2) No, there is a huge difference.
Nothing like a good enigma.
Good Lord!
No, offering anything substantive is NOT a pre-requisite to posting. In fact, We have not edited or censored any comments posted here. Only comments to the next post soliciting testimonials is "moderated" to allow us to move comments like this one to this other thread. Intact.
You are being confronted by several of us, Darko foremost perhaps, because you seem to speak with a voice that believes it IS offering something substantive. If you wish to continue to heckle, then please do so.
If you are trying to engage with the blog posters and/or other commentors and offer an alternative or minority (at least in this venue) opinion, then please do so.
We merely feel you are being very ambiguous about whether you are offering substantive arguments in contrast to the posts and comments seen here, or if you are merely "heckling".
It is easy to be a critic (which is probably what you are saying about our collective posting and commentary), and much harder to offer substantive arguement. The only substance we've seen here to date from you has been noticing that there we tend toward criticism of the established order here. You are correct in that. Is that a surprise?
What we are offended by is your accusation of hypocrisy. We *are* in fact interested in opposing viewpoints. The viewpoints themselves, not the fact that you hold them.. it is a well-established fact ath you oppose the viewpoints expressed here, at least in an ad-hominem sort of way.. What is not well established is what your opposing viewpoints are.
Your latest comment does, begin to offer your opinion and we will address that opinion in a separate response to follow.
- Doc
The CI information from folks that have gone through it is indeed interesting and useful. The laboratory has had 2 meetings behind the fence on this topic with the workforce, and I think a third is planned this week. Is the information presented there consistent with what folks are reporting in the CI thread? It seems to me that is is. Given that, and given the limited scope of the poly, how do folks feel about it in general now? Are you getting the right information about it and do you feel you have response options?
This is a very good question you pose here.
We wonder if those who have attended the "information sessions" find that they are being told the truth, being told the whole story, etc. about the efficacy and true purpose of polygraphs in this context.
We have our own opinions about this and believe they are relatively well founded, but would like to hear from others on this topic.
- Doc
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throughοut youг enνironmеnt would buy to гeаch sеven per cent сaгbon dioxіde bеforе yοu fеel anxіous.
Dr. Strangelove, I can talk about the CI polygraph I took for HRP. Can you give us a new thread?
5/17/07 11:32 AM