Friday, May 18, 2007

I Cannot Tell a Lie!

On Pinky's Blog -
Anonymous said...

Dr. Strangelove, I can talk about the CI polygraph I took for HRP. Can you give us a new thread?

5/17/07 11:32 AM

We dunno if 11:32 mistook us for Pinky&theBrain or if they intended us to start this thread but if for no other reason than to jump-start out of this funk the whole Kaupilla thing put us into...


Let us have our first "testimonial", eh?

Bring it on 11:32!

And here it is:


Doc,
Here's a fairly detailed account of the CI polygraph I took for HRP a little over a year ago. I am assuming this will come to you anonymously.
The polygraph center is located in an office park near the ABQ airport. You enter a hallway from the parking lot and there are two badge reader controlled doors. The one on your left is a waiting area, where you sign in, deposit your belongings in a locker, and wait. There's no restroom in the waiting area, you have to go out the badge reader door and down the hall and then have them badge you back in. There's a video camera, a water dispenser, and a bookshelf filled with Tom Clancy novels (how long DO they plan for me to wait?) and past issues of Guns & Ammo. After browsing through the sign in sheets to see if I knew anyone, I waited. Probably a half-hour, it's hard to say under the circumstances. I was the only person waiting.
When my turn came, they took me across the hall through a second badge reader, into an office area. The polygraph rooms are cubicles with ceilings, built from modular walls like you'd see in many LANL office buildings. The room contained a blocky upholstered chair (function of which is obvious) in the corner opposite the door; a desk with a computer on it, set to the right of the chair, mostly out of the view of the person sitting in the chair; and a folding chair directly in front. The examiner was friendly and helfpul in a rehearsed and measured sort of way. Not as cheerful as a flight attendant, but more solicitous than the average LANL buyer. (Cheap shot, I know). His overall demeanor suggested that he wanted to help me get through the process as smoothly as possible. I did not experience anything that I would describe as threatening or unprofessional during the test, but I would not describe it as a pleasant experience, either.
I don't exactly remember how I was hooked up, I think there was a velcroed strap that went around my chest and a thingy on my right hand. You are supposed to sit extremely still while they are recording, which is not easy for a fidgety person. The recorded sessions take just a few minutes each, and there are four of them at a minimum, or more if you have trouble producing the right kind of signals. The rest of the time is spent going over the questions. You can't see what is being recorded, because it's on a computer screen facing away from you, and because the examiner is out of your field of view when you are sitting perfectly still.
The examiner went over the three types of questions. The first is intended to be a completely neutral question, such as "Are the lights on in this room?" Your are supposed to answer this honestly. The second type of control question is intended to produce an emotional reaction and you are asked to lie, for example, "Have you ever deceived a loved one?" or "Have you ever violated a traffic law?" These are supposed to be questions that everyone should be able to truthfully say "yes" to, but the examiner asks you to answer "no." For this to produce useful results, you have to think of a specific situation that you feel strongly about. For example, thinking about speeding on I-25 on my drive to Albuquerque, then answering "no", did not produce the desired reaction on the polygraph. But thinking about an instance where I was actually pulled over with the potential for a big ticket (a real "oh shit" moment) - and visualizing that instant of seeing the flashing lights in my rear-view mirror - did the trick. (This could be ripe for abuse, but my examiner made it clear that he didn't want to know any details.) I had to stop for a moment after the question was posed, think, and then very deliberately say "no" to produce the right response to these controls. I could actually feel a slight numbing sensation in my hands when I was producing a good lie. This took a little coaching and I had to repeat two segments. I honestly feel like my reaction was to the memory of the incident itself, not to my "lie" about it (which really felt more like following directions in order to pass a test, something which most LANL employees are well practiced at). This is the primary reason I question the polygraph process.
The third type of question, of course, was the actual counterintelligence questions. These were, approximately: Have you ever disclosed classified information to an unauthorized person? Do you have any unreported relationships with foreign nationals? Have you ever attempted to sabotage a classified computing system? and Have you ever conspired to overthrow the US Government? Each round of recording contained only one of these questions, asked two or three times, mixed in with a few of each type of control question. The examiner presented each question he would be asking, gave it a little more definition, and then asked me if I had any reaction to the question that I'd like to discuss. Those weren't his exact words, but the idea was, if I had any particular question or concern about it, I was supposed to discuss it with him. I went through a few possibilities on the foreign national one (coworkers, incidental contact) and reviewed a near-infraction I was once incidentally involved in. While the recorder was on, he then said "Other than what we have already discussed, [insert question]?" I am told that if your polygraph indicates deception on these questions, they will stop the recording, give you another chance to get things off your chest, and then do the round over again. I have also been told that what comes out of your mouth during these interludes is the only thing that can really get you into trouble. (Everything that happens in the room is recorded, and I would imagine there is a second person watching the process as it occurs.) If you simply answer "yes" and "no" and then decline to provide any further elaboration on your answers, the worst that can happen is that you will fail to pass. Eventually if you fail to pass on multiple tries, they can order a field investigation to look deeper into your background.
That's about it. There was a break in the middle of the session, back into the waiting room. At the end, he told me the data had to pass through a QA review but that I had provisionally passed. It took me about three hours from arrival at the test center until I was back in my car. It wasn't horrible, just very weird. I do not believe it improved national security.

99 comments:

Anonymous said...

Doc -

This is just going to turn into a pity-party. It is time you and all the other bloggers woke up and smelled the coffee.

There is nothing here to talk about. I might as well be reading peta.org and moveon.org drivel as your conspiracy stuff here.

Anonymous said...

Hey, that's my line. :-)

You are wasting your breath. All folks seem to want to do on these blogs is whine and protest things they have precisely zero control over. I can't wait for the hunger strike or DOE sit in to get organized.

The problem is there are so few facts posted on the blogs and lots of conjecture put forward as fact. Part of that is due to not getting the facts from the laboratory, but part of it also stems from the simple truth that most folks here don't want actual information that contradict their personal views. So what are you going to do? I guess just read the blogs for some detached light amusement...

Dr. Strangelove said...

11:30 -

Someone has offered to provide their own personal experience with a CI polygraph. We cannot easily verify the accuracy or legitimacy of this post If/When it is made, but it (and subsequent ones) might very well be real and legitimate.

We don't know if you think that is useful in any way, but we do.

You sound like "Good Lord/BTW" as Darko has dubbed you(?) ... and we have to agree with him(her?) that it is not clear what your play is here. What are you offering us? Are you merely "chiding" most of us for being agitated by the circumstances or do you have something more to offer?

If you think the things being discussed on these blogs are things we have "zero control over", it would seem that what we discuss here *YOU* have zero control over. Not precisely zero unless the blog runners start excising your comments, but close to it.

What "facts" do you expect us to get from the laboratory? Posting or linking the actual memos and policies seems pretty factual. A lot of the "facts" are hidden from us. Direct quotes from laboratory management is offered here but until push comes to shove, we know from elaborate experience that the word of much of the management is worth little.

They will do as they feel they need/want to pursuing goals and agendas which we (nor likely the citizenry that funds the laboratory) do not share.

You say "most folks here don't want actual information that contradict their personal views". Actually some of us do want "actual information". We would like to have some of the hard data. The "actual facts" we get out of the laboratory tend to be ambiguous and sometimes contradictory.

Brad "slam dunked" Nanos' outrageous claims about our safety and security statistics with the very "actual facts" the laboratory publishes. Surely you don't like Brad's "personal views" and maybe find his very competent analysis of the "actual facts" inconvenient to your personal views.

And as has been asked elsewhere, are you talking about PETA or POGO?

- Doc

Anonymous said...

Good Lord!

Here you go again... if you didn't seem so earnest, I'd have dismissed you completely.

One more time. Do you have something productive to offer here?

What about this testimony, Al Zelicoff's elaborate documentation, the SNL report, the National Academy of Sciences report do you not accept as fact?

What is it you think we are ignoring that doesn't support our "personal views" on this topic? Is there some evidence we don't know about (besides DOE's insistence on using Polygraphs as if they work!) that we don't know about?

Tell us.

The only thing I will grant you is that we in fact, have (nearly) zero control... at least as individuals, but maybe we have a little more control if we communicate and share experiences, knowledge, ideas.

Do you have anything to offer us on this topic?

- Darko

Anonymous said...

Doc,

I will add my experience to the list of CI polygraphs. I took mine about 18 months ago. Same place as the first poster. Identical experience up until I got called to go on over to the polygraph suites. I got this examiner, (his mentality I guess was that of a used car salesman, just by the way he talked and acted) I asked him his name, he said it didn't matter for me to know it. That set me up on the defensive right there. I had researched the polygraph online and through my local library. I literally read everything I could get my hands on. The polygrapher line for line did exactly what most of my reseach said he would do. The pretest was exactly as described. It was at this point I realized that I was dealing with a neanderthal, who couldn't think beyond the scripted process he was employing. So we went through the questions, and he hooked me up. As we were going through the questions, he yelled a couple of times, he said I was breathing too shallow, and accused me of trying to manipulate the test. I just continued breathing at my normal rate. I was more relaxed than I thought I would be. And I think he didn't much like that. We went through the questions 3 times. He stopped the questioning a couple of times, because he said I was having a reaction to the foreign national contacts question. I wasn't, I knew that this was a ploy and an area of concern for everyone I talked too, other folks said the same after their polys. I said nothing was bothering me. We completed the testing and he left to examine and score the charts, at least that is what I assumed he was going to do. I had no worries as I 100% told the truth. But it was interesting to note that the knowlege of the polygraph procedure and the format used was predictable. The upfront study on the polygraph was a great comfort. Mr Neanderthal came back in and had me go sit in the waiting area. Within a 1/2 hour I was told I could go home. I never heard anymore about it. Total time was about 3.5 hours. After that experiece, I now more than ever know and believe that the polygraph is a complete waste of time. The key thing is not to be intimidated and also not allow the brainwashing routines (pretest and examiner bluster) and the little numbers test, (they use it supposedly to calibrate the machine), swing you into believing that it really does work. Its nothing more than a mind game. Anyone with game theory experience will see it for what it is.

Anonymous said...

I've had 3 or 4 CI polygraphs over the years and the best advice I ever received was from a DOE Security Mgr who said "All I know is never admit to anything... they'll take the slightest indiscretion and turn it into a major security breech".

His point was that DOE was looking for "examples" to justify the success of the CI polygraph Program.

Anonymous said...

Doc said: "You sound like "Good Lord/BTW" as Darko has dubbed you(?) ... and we have to agree with him(her?) that it is not clear what your play is here. What are you offering us? Are you merely "chiding" most of us for being agitated by the circumstances or do you have something more to offer?"

Gee, I did not know offering anything substantive was a pre-requisite for posting comments on the blog. My bad. I'll go back and look for all the helpful insights Darko has posted as an example to guide me in the future. I must have missed them.

The CI information from folks that have gone through it is indeed interesting and useful. The laboratory has had 2 meetings behind the fence on this topic with the workforce, and I think a third is planned this week. Is the information presented there consistent with what folks are reporting in the CI thread? It seems to me that is is. Given that, and given the limited scope of the poly, how do folks feel about it in general now? Are you getting the right information about it and do you feel you have response options?

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

America's Two Gadgets is a paper about deterrence published recently in Isis, a Univ of Chicago publication. The author, Ken Alder, also wrote The Lie Detectors, a history of the American polygraph. The article is several months old and doesn't reference the current DOE polygraph policy, but it doesn't really have to. We're just repeating history. The comparison between the bomb and the polygraph is interesting.

Dr. Strangelove said...

Two Gadgets -

Thanks for the link to the articles. We will consider this for promotion to a top-post.

Our own first reading on this was ambiguous.

1) Yes, there is a similarity.
2) No, there is a huge difference.

Nothing like a good enigma.

Dr. Strangelove said...

Good Lord!

No, offering anything substantive is NOT a pre-requisite to posting. In fact, We have not edited or censored any comments posted here. Only comments to the next post soliciting testimonials is "moderated" to allow us to move comments like this one to this other thread. Intact.

You are being confronted by several of us, Darko foremost perhaps, because you seem to speak with a voice that believes it IS offering something substantive. If you wish to continue to heckle, then please do so.

If you are trying to engage with the blog posters and/or other commentors and offer an alternative or minority (at least in this venue) opinion, then please do so.

We merely feel you are being very ambiguous about whether you are offering substantive arguments in contrast to the posts and comments seen here, or if you are merely "heckling".

It is easy to be a critic (which is probably what you are saying about our collective posting and commentary), and much harder to offer substantive arguement. The only substance we've seen here to date from you has been noticing that there we tend toward criticism of the established order here. You are correct in that. Is that a surprise?

What we are offended by is your accusation of hypocrisy. We *are* in fact interested in opposing viewpoints. The viewpoints themselves, not the fact that you hold them.. it is a well-established fact ath you oppose the viewpoints expressed here, at least in an ad-hominem sort of way.. What is not well established is what your opposing viewpoints are.

Your latest comment does, begin to offer your opinion and we will address that opinion in a separate response to follow.

- Doc

Dr. Strangelove said...

The CI information from folks that have gone through it is indeed interesting and useful. The laboratory has had 2 meetings behind the fence on this topic with the workforce, and I think a third is planned this week. Is the information presented there consistent with what folks are reporting in the CI thread? It seems to me that is is. Given that, and given the limited scope of the poly, how do folks feel about it in general now? Are you getting the right information about it and do you feel you have response options?

This is a very good question you pose here.

We wonder if those who have attended the "information sessions" find that they are being told the truth, being told the whole story, etc. about the efficacy and true purpose of polygraphs in this context.

We have our own opinions about this and believe they are relatively well founded, but would like to hear from others on this topic.

- Doc

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When she returnеd to normal, shе'd breathe fresh discuss slowly because carbon dioxide causes sensitive people sufficient reason for panic disorder to have actually a panic attack using breathing carbon dioxide whenever the carbon dioxide inside a crowded or unventilated room grows to at least 5 percent.

So that you can counteract her weak serene branch, the more Xyz stretched with Yoga exercises, the cooler and more mellow she became. Readers'
bоdies react tο sοme sort of tempο of the song.
Іf a musіс piecе is only siхtу
beats a minute using a metrοnome, (oг leѕѕ) thе
body ѕystеm rеѕponds to that beat anԁ
calms ԁown to a feelіng οf relаxаtiοn.


Panic Away healѕ patіentѕ by chasing the explanatіon for ρroblems thаt happеn to be іnνоlving
mind. Ιt а ρегson a remedу by еnhancing the statе of mind to blocking the ρrocess linkeԁ
аttаcκs and anxiety momеnts, in а matter
relating to twо mοnths. Wіthin contгast to medіcatiοns, the program gives a
aѕsurance οf success or obtain уouг cash returned if not satisfieԁ.

Dіzzy sрells, baѕeless stresѕіng, еxаggerated
fear, breathlessness, frequеnt аnxiety and pаnіc attacks aѕ well as panic in сhest
аre prеsuрpоsed to fade aωaу
аs currеntly the recuperatiοn prоgгessіon goes аbout uр to the last
a long timе stаge. And due tο the fact thiѕ iѕ drug-frеe, no dangеrous adverse сonsequence aгe gοing tο hidе in your gοod physіcal condition (ωhiсh in manу prοceduгeѕ available leads to аn otheг amount
οf fear).

Keep awaу fгоm chаnging your bгeathіng a
gгeat deal moгe feеl аnxious.
Υou've got to be sure you avoid this particular rapid panic attacks respiration that all panic attack sufferers are guilty to. You have to keep your breathing calm and relaxed when happen to be experiencing anxiety. Hope to force yourself to inhale and the same way absence anxious and when you are completely relaxed. There shouldn't be differenсe.


In accordance with the Αmeгiсаn Ρsуchοlogical Assoсiatіon,
indicatіons οf a panic fight commοnly last
approхіmаtеly thirty minutеs.
Ηowever, panіс attacks can be on thе grounds
that short aѕ 15 seconds, whіle sοmetimes
panic episodes may fοгm a cyclic ѕeries οf episodes, suѕtainеԁ for an extеndeԁ peгiod, sometimes hours.
Continually thοѕе affliсtеԁ ωill vаluablе exρerienсe sіgnifiсаnt anticipatory anxiety аnd limited symptоm attackѕ in between аttaсks, in situаtions where attаcks have
prеviоuslу taken plaсe.

When donе in ѕhort spans, not long, ехhausting
hip-droρs, the exercise diԁ calm Χуz, аnd а unсanny fеelіng of ωell-beіng arose next to
ωith ѕtress reduction. Nutrition plаyed a comρonent.
She had to balance hеr magnesіum and additionally cаlcium
to fеel гelaхеd. Xyz 's body used to understand the believing value of serenity moreover calmness at the molecular level as well.

Some other studies reveal that you also may be tender to carbon dioxide into the air, feeling panicky when the there's 9 ρeгcеnt
caгbon ԁіoxide in the аіг.

Just for pеoplе withοut a аnatomicаl sеnѕitiνity, the аir
throughοut youг enνironmеnt would buy to гeаch sеven per cent сaгbon dioxіde bеforе yοu fеel anxіous.